Another comment I've decided to answer with an update. We're discussing using the Iron Lich Overseer to run dual Leviathans, and the implications of using two Warwitch Sirens, and one ILO, with two Leviathans as one big package.
Secondly you've got two nine point models, that rely on two squishy and a one hardy solo. Sure they've got Stealth, but there are plenty of things out there that ignore it. Cygnar and some Legion lists, will surgically remove your support structure, and leave your two Leviathans with a single shot per round. There are also AoE attacks out there, that will light your ILO on fire and watch him burn to death, or even just kill him with a lucky boosted AoE.
Then we've got the whole issue with resource management. While this is an issue with battlegroups as well, the simple fact is, that if you need your Warwitches for anything else, it will cost you a shot from a Leviathan. If your ILO died, your Warwitches are stuck, or your 9 point heavies will deliver one RAT 5 shot per round. Finally there's the issue of max load, because unless the ILO gains a soul, you can't ever get the Leviathan to the three Focus it needs, in order to make two shots with boosted damage.
I think the idea has some merit, and stealth solves a lot of problems for the Leviathans, but I also think you're making your army vulnerable to kamikaze attacks. Taking out that one ILO will gimp your two heavies, and force two solos to camp, making him worth a lot of resources. That means an opponent can waste 5-6-7 points on taking him out, and still be ahead in the resource game, which is crippling.
It forces you to play defense, it makes it harder to go offensive if needed, and it requires the whole 25 point package to stick together and stay back. I'd love some reports from your games, because as always there's the odd chance that reality defies theory ;D
The sirens are there for whatever they are most useful. If it's more useful to use them on nodes, they can break away from the levi brick and do so. Same with shadowbind.While I agree with you in principle, there are a few things you need to consider here. The first of these is movement and deployment. You can't have the ILO running, in round one, against many armies out there, or he'll be the target of enemy long range fire, and it will end poorly. This means you risk being left out of position with your Leviathans (or forgo Stealth in round one), and that's never a good thing.
The overseer is def14 arm16 and with stealth basically every single round (his soul collection is mostly garbage) blasts are his biggest concern. Arm 16 is pretty decent for blasts.
Also, should the unthinkable happen and the overseer dies, the levi's are autonomous and the sirens can STILL pump focus into them. You basically lose stealth and a shot per levi, and when you go for the kill you can still break the sirens off to do whatever.
Just food for thought, I've had a blast playing this list!
Secondly you've got two nine point models, that rely on two squishy and a one hardy solo. Sure they've got Stealth, but there are plenty of things out there that ignore it. Cygnar and some Legion lists, will surgically remove your support structure, and leave your two Leviathans with a single shot per round. There are also AoE attacks out there, that will light your ILO on fire and watch him burn to death, or even just kill him with a lucky boosted AoE.
Then we've got the whole issue with resource management. While this is an issue with battlegroups as well, the simple fact is, that if you need your Warwitches for anything else, it will cost you a shot from a Leviathan. If your ILO died, your Warwitches are stuck, or your 9 point heavies will deliver one RAT 5 shot per round. Finally there's the issue of max load, because unless the ILO gains a soul, you can't ever get the Leviathan to the three Focus it needs, in order to make two shots with boosted damage.
I think the idea has some merit, and stealth solves a lot of problems for the Leviathans, but I also think you're making your army vulnerable to kamikaze attacks. Taking out that one ILO will gimp your two heavies, and force two solos to camp, making him worth a lot of resources. That means an opponent can waste 5-6-7 points on taking him out, and still be ahead in the resource game, which is crippling.
It forces you to play defense, it makes it harder to go offensive if needed, and it requires the whole 25 point package to stick together and stay back. I'd love some reports from your games, because as always there's the odd chance that reality defies theory ;D
Hey I wanted to thank you for responding in such an epic fashion! I'll let you know how he works out.
ReplyDeleteI must admit that part of the reason for his inclusion is that I hate saying that a model is "so bad as to be unplayable" so the list was built around him. I was a little caught off guard to see you toying with such a similar list!
I can't wait to hear more battle reports with the build your using, keep up the good work!
No thanks required mate. I welcome a brother weirdo, and applaud the desire to field the models deemed unworthy by the masses :D
ReplyDeleteI guess he was designed with the Desecrator in mind, since it has the accumulator rule, allowing an ILO + Siren to achieve a full Focus load. Sadly the Desecrator has poor range, and paying 15 points for a one shot package is a bit much.
Next I tried thinking up ways to use him while ignoring the Jack Marshal part, but for three points we could bring Slaughterborn, and suddenly a pseudo thresher doesn't seem to hot.
He has Dark Fire, so I thought I could add him to a shooting position, but even with his pseudo thresher and ranged spell, he's just not worth three points.
I hate it when I can't find a way to make crap work :D